• Aria@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Can’t you guys just stop using Adrian Zens? Is no one else able to make up unhinged nonsense about China? Literally all it takes is for him to adopt a pseudonym and the credibility of the propaganda increases entirely for free.

      • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        I’d like to draw attention to how every tankie who commented in this thread actually looked at the sources whereas the liberals mostly read the headline.

        • SpooneyOdin@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Did you really look at the sources? Because the first source in the article links another BBC article (which links to another article) that ultimately sources research from the Uyghur Human Rights Project. That project does not appear to have any connection to Adrian Zenz. So my original question still stands what does Adrian Zenz have to do with this?

          You say every tankie who commented actually looked at the sources but, as far as I can tell, they are just parroting propaganda talking points that they are accusing everyone else of falling for.

          Look, I get being skeptical of what the West says about China but I don’t think anyone can deny that anything anti China gets quickly astroturfed on Lemmy. I’m seeing lots more knee jerk reactions from tankies that obviously did not read the article and are accusing everyone else of just falling for Western propaganda without doing some real introspection that they are basically just doing the same thing.

          • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            Adrian Zens is integral to the Uyghur Human Rights Project. I suppose I don’t do new research, I just follow links until I find something I’ve judged as untrustworthy before. He’s not directly credited as a contributor, but Uyghur Human Rights Project uses him as their source for all their publishing, and invites him to their events.

            • SpooneyOdin@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Well, I don’t know what else to tell you. I couldn’t find anything about him on their site or him being used for any of research that I looked into. Now, I didn’t go over everything so it is possible he’s worked with them in the past but I don’t think that would be a reason to discredit all the work the UHRP.

              What am I seeing is anything critical of China getting downvoted and a bunch of people congrating themselves for not falling for the propaganda when I literally looked and could not find anything they were claiming as part of the article.

              I encourage anyone seeing all these comments discrediting this story and look into the details yourself. I could not find any evidence for all the claims they are making to discredit this. There has been some good thoughtful discussion and I appreciate that but lots of knee jerk reactions that people not doing proper research when even just a cursory check doesn’t back up what they are claiming.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                1 year ago

                Anyone reading the above comment, simple Google “Uyghur Human Rights Project Adrian Zenz” and investigate how involved he is with the links on their own website that show up. It will be obvious how full of shit this poster is.

        • SpooneyOdin@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Well I followed the citations in this article and he did not come up so I’m not sure what you are talking about.

          • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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            1 year ago

            Adrian Zens is integral to the Uyghur Human Rights Project.

            This is honestly pretty dismaying. This isn’t meant as a put down because it is outside of your control but we’ve got to work on investigative literacy as a country if so many people are having a hard time doing simple stuff like this.

            • SpooneyOdin@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              How is he so integral? I’ve looked all over their site and at a few of their reports and there’s nothing about it him or his findings? Look, I’m willing to hear people out but I’ve looked and I can’t find anything that backs up what people are claiming here so I don’t think it’s me that needs to work on investigative literacy.

              I encourage anyone on the fence about this to do their own research. His Wikipedia article has some interesting points:

              "As a result of his work on Xinjiang, Zenz has become a target for coordinated disinformation attacks from pro-Beijing and Chinese state-run media, as well as other state-affiliated entities. Zenz and his work on Xinjiang have been criticized by the Chinese government, which, according to The Globe and Mail, “has called his findings ‘lies’—even when it confirmed them.

              “During an interview with The Daily Telegraph published in May 2021, Zenz defended himself against allegations of fabrication, noting that 95% of documents he has analyzed are publicly available government records.”

              Plus his findings have been corroborated by lots of reputable reporters. I’ve seen a lot of claims that people need to stop believing the lies and look at the sources. I’ve done that and not found what they are claiming so what exactly am I missing here?

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                1 year ago

                Did you google “Uyghur Human Rights Project Adrian Zenz” before replying to my previous comment?

                Also did you look at who funds the org? Because it is the US government through NED through only one shell, it isnt hard to look up.

                His Wikipedia article has some interesting points:

                As hopefully your high school librarian has explained to you already, Wikipedia is not a good source.

                • SpooneyOdin@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Yep, I googled it and I encourage everyone else to do it too. There was nothing. I did see a few Chinese sources calling him out as fraud but nothing unbiased. I did see lots of other credible organizations backing up his findings too.

                  The Wikipedia article was simply a good starting point that I encouraged people to check out. There’s tons of citations in there that back up their points.

  • mim@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    I’m just gonna sit back and enjoy the tankies from lemmygrad denying or trying to justify this one as well. 🍿

      • mim@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        Imagine defending Russian and Chinese imperialism because “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

        • ☭ Blursty ☭@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Neither China not Russia are imperialist. China is a socialist state so by definition cannot be and Russia is an immature industrial capitalist state.

          • mim@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            Imagine thinking Chinese workers own the means of production, or not even knowing where the term “tankie” comes from.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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              The term tankie comes from the 1956 hungarian revolution/counter-revoluton (depending on who you ask) which split the British communist party, those that supported the Soviet Union suppressing it with the military were called tankies.

              The video of the man in front of the tank column related to the June 4th incident did not result in the man standing in front of the tank dying, and those tanks were leaving the area where the violence occurred and is not where the word tankie comes from like I believe you are suggesting.

              • mim@lemmy.sdf.org
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                No, I was suggesting that tankie came to describe USSR supporters (which modern apologists project onto Russia, as if the wall never fell). I am aware of the origin of the term.

                My comment was a reply on people supporting whatever Russia and China do. It takes a jab at both.

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                  No, I was suggesting that tankie came to describe USSR supporters

                  No, it started that way? Do you mean started to be more all encompassing? I literally explained the origin of the term one comment ago. Also, I dont see how this

                  " Imagine thinking Chinese workers own the means of production, or not even knowing where the term “tankie” comes from. "

                  -can mean what you say you meant.

                  (which modern apologists project onto Russia, as if the wall never fell).

                  Anyone who has researched the USSR enough to cut through capitalist propaganda knows Russia is now a neolib-ish bourgeois democracy.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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              1 year ago

              Do you know what the KMT did to the indigenous people who occupied Taiwan before the KMT retreated there?

          • 133arc585@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            China is a socialist state so by definition cannot be

            Can you elaborate on that? I agree that China is not imperialist, but I don’t see how socialism by definition precludes that possibility.

            • ☭ Blursty ☭@lemmygrad.ml
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              Imperialism is the final stage of capitalism. Finance capitalism takes over from industrial capitalism and seeks out markets abroad, having exhausted the internal ones. It teams up with other finance capitalism to become a global force, the export of capital becomes the most prominent feature of the economy rather than the export of raw materials or finished goods. The states they come from tend to become fascist in nature, or as some people put it, “fascism is imperialism turned inward”.

              Even if China was a capitalist country as some people claim, it still wouldn’t be at that stage yet. Russia might wish to one day be there, but it too has a long way to go.

              • 133arc585@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                You didn’t answer what I asked.

                You said that capitalism by definition leads to imperialism. I asked how socialism by definition precludes imperialism.

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                  I would suggest reading “Imperialism, the highest stage of Capitalism”

                  Imperialism has a highly specific definition.

  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Yes, the reason diaspora isn’t speaking out against China is because there’s a conspiracy to silence them.~

    There can’t possibly be any other explanation.~

    • 001100 010010@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Well I, as a former citizen of China, do “speak out” against CCP as in family discussions, in online forums, and sometimes with classmates in school, but I don’t “speak out” as in actually participate in protests. Demonstrations just isn’t my thing. Protesting against CCP gets you labeled a “race traitor”. I mean honestly, with all the racial problems in the US, and having to deal with my abusive family, I really don’t have to energy care about CCP anymore. It’s dead to me. I view China just like how an anti-fascist German view Nazi Germany. There’s no point of protests. It’s beyond anything a protest can fix. Like… why do I even care, it isn’t even my country anymore.

      Edit: Also, it isn’t a conspiracy that ethnic Chinese (I’m gonna use the term “ethnic Chinese” because this applies regardless of citizenship status) people don’t “speak out”. People just value “Social Harmony” more than being correct. Like if you live abroad, why care about what happens back in China? Most ethnic Chinese people who lives abroad don’t really feel welcome in their new country, so why be against your former country if you aren’t even sure if you are actually safe in your new one? You don’t end up in a situation where you have no safe harbor in the world. Ethnic Chinese people living abroad believe China will accept them again in-case their living situation abroad goes south, so they don’t want to get on the bad side of the Chinese government. Like what happened with the Chinese Exclusion act in the US more than 100 years ago, and also the Japanese Internment Camps. Maybe you disagree with the thought process, but that is what most ethnic Chinese people think.

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        No, clearly the Chinese government has your family hostage and that’s why you aren’t out protesting.~ Didn’t you read the article? 😏

        • 001100 010010@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          If your comment (the top-level one) was supposed to be sarcasm, you need a /s tag because there are people actually being serious saying that “it’s a conspiracy, couldn’t be any other possible explanation” stuff.

          But also, the “hostage” thing is not entirely false, just very exaggerated. They only take your family “hostage” if you are like a leader of a protest or something. But I doubt they care if you are just some forum user that has no followers and “protesting” online. They got too many dissidents within their jurisdiction to care about those abroad.

    • ☭ Blursty ☭@lemmygrad.ml
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      What’s with all the conspiracy nutcases here? The fucking Uighur genocide… smh, are the space lizards making China do this or is it Sasquatch man?

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      This, my friend, is the absense of neocon/neolib censorship and propaganda that you were so used to on corporate social media.

      Isn’t it great?

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      1 year ago

      I’d take the study a lot more seriously if the people financing it weren’t literally tied to the US/UK governments…

      • yeather@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        We’d all take China a lot more seriously if it wasn’t literally interring people in reeducation camps and ruling over people’s lives like it’s 1984.

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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          You need to catch up with the narrative, rheyre claiming the crackdown is over now that tourists are coming in and not noticing anything.

          • yeather@lemmy.ca
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            Man it’s almost like the vast majority of tourists stick to coastal cities and big urban areas where the Uighur population isn’t and not the vast desert that these camps and people’s exist in.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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              Wait, do you think there aren’t people who tour Muslim cultural sites, of which there are many? Do you not think that anyone ever goes to interior spots? In the US, the rocky mountains and the Appalachians are both used a lot for tourism.

              Do you think there aren’t uyghurs in the cities in the region?

              It sounds like you dont know anything about the situation and are trying to justify already held beliefs by making rhetoric that doesn’t really apply to the reality of the situation.

    • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      They’re paid astroturfers and they don’t belong on Lemmy. Why the server admins refuse to police them, I just don’t know.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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        Imagine thinking there are paid astroturfers on a tiny niche platform with a few thousand users. We have some utterly insane people here after reddit migration.

        • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Imagine thinking governments, fascists and PR agencies wouldn’t migrate to wherever people choose to hang out and continue their decades-long campaign to brainwash people into believing whatever is convenient for them.

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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            I see you don’t understand the concept of niches. Governments, fascists, and PR agencies are going to spend their effort where it makes the most impact. Only a brainwashed person couldn’t comprehend that people could legitimately disagree with their world view, and anybody who thinks different from them must therefore be a paid troll.

            • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              And now you’re defending the practice.

              How about, you and the rest of the dumbasses pushing your propaganda garbage go find another place to peddle it? Like hell?

                • socsa@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  First, I will take the compliment with grace.

                  Second, this forum deserves a better class of communist. This shit is just intellectually lazy.

    • fishtacos@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      I found this to be a decent enough primer: https://medium.com/@bobbyarlan/a-case-study-in-racist-anti-chinese-sentiment-fuelled-by-american-bots-and-western-propaganda-f0a69978d568

      A decent TLDR: The article argues that anti-Chinese propaganda spread by the U.S. and Western media is fueling racist sentiment. Claims of mass detention of Uyghurs are based on flawed studies and sources like Adrian Zenz, a far-right Christian fundamentalist. Atrocity propaganda is a common tactic used by the U.S. to justify wars. The U.S. is threatened by China’s economic rise and technological progress, so it is trying to portray China negatively and prepare public opinion for a potential conflict. However, most of the world sees China positively and as an economic opportunity, making a new Cold War against China unlikely to succeed

      In short, a lot of information about China that has come out of Western news media has been proven to be based on known biased sources, known anit-China rhetoric, and/or outright lies. It’s difficult to prove/disprove of any information specifically, that takes time and reporting, but a lot of people see the anti-China pattern in BBC reporting, and tend to dismiss it because of known history.

      • A1kmm@lemmy.amxl.com
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        1 year ago

        Apparently there is a PRC smear campaign against Adrian Zenz - https://www.mandiant.com/resources/blog/pro-prc-information-operations-campaign-haienergy, including by creating what Mandiant describes as what they “suspect to be at least three fabricated letters based on obvious grammatical errors and typos” to smear him - so I’d take anything that is ad hominem attacks against him rather than debating his actual work with a grain of salt.

        However, even if you don’t accept his writings, there are plenty of other people who have done credible research into the plight of the Uyghur people - e.g. resources contributed to https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/, such as articles like this one by Gene A. Bunin: https://livingotherwise.com/2021/01/04/the-elephant-in-the-xuar-ii-brand-new-prisons-expanding-old-prisons-and-hundreds-of-thousands-new-inmates/.

      • MacroCyclo@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        I think this flies a bit too far in the other direction. China is totalitarian. It is not a democracy. It is also increasingly antagonizing nations abroad. I think it is valid to consider it a threat if you are any other nation, period.

        Edit: Kinda like Russia

        • fishtacos@lemmy.ml
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          So… No, it’s not like Russia at all. But that nuance is too long for me to explain right now. Short answer is that Russia is capitalist, and China is 50/50 capitalist/socialist, depending on definitions, and yeah a lot of nuance.

          But China is run by the people, their authoritarian politics keeps their billionaires and induatry in check. Their local politics is a negotiation with the national politics.

          And… How exactly is China antagonizing nations abroad? Because a lot of countries are choosing to work with China because they AREN’T antagonizing them as much as America and Europe. So… The reality is the opposite.

          • MacroCyclo@lemmy.ca
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            I mean, if you haven’t been there or don’t know anyone from there you could pretend they are a democracy, but they are authoritarian like Russia is authoritarian. Long term they will seek a wider swath to be authoritarian over.

            • fishtacos@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              And the argument from ignorance continues.

              All I have to say is read more and be online less.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.ml
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                  Newsflash, you can find people in any country who don’t like their government, and you’ll obviously see these people over represented in the population that left the country. The fallacy of your argument is to conclude that the people you know hold the opinion of the majority of people in China. I made plenty of friends who from China in university, and most of them went back after graduating. Vast majority of people in China support their government and are proud of their country. Even western polling admits this.

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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          How many seats are in the highest legislative body?

          What rights and responsibilities do autonomous regions within China have?

          What is the most distributed government legislative committee type and what is their role in the government?

          • yeather@lemmy.ca
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            1, Xi Xinping and whatever he says, doesn’t matter how many show ponys you fill the room with.

            1. In the end they all answer to the whims of the central government, which can change or remove and rights and responsibilities autonomous regions within China have.

            2. See answer one.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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              So what I’m hearing is it doesn’t matter if you’re ignorant about the way China works because the US media told you Xi is an evil dictator who controls everything and you believed them. Got it.

    • Gorilladrums@lemm.ee
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      Lemmy was literally a tankie shithole before the Reddit influx, and even then not much changed

  • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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    Its a very weakly sourced state sponsored media article reporting on their state enemy. You have to be willfully credulous to believe their claims without further proof.

    • Freeman@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      I saw a piece about the shadow police in germany lately. I am sure that the chinese foreign police exists.

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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        I have no doubt, every nation has secret police. I simply doubt they are doing what the article suggests theyre doing. It seems to me the article is interested in explaining why there aren’t many uyghur Muslims joining their narrative and why a lot of them are supportive of China and feel their culture is respected.

  • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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    A UN Resolution of global south nations:https://undocs.org/pdf?symbol=en/A/HRC/41/G/17

    We express our firm opposition to relevant countries’ practice of politicizing human rights issues, by naming and shaming, and publicly exerting pressures on other countries. We commend China’s remarkable achievements in the field of human rights by adhering to the people-centered development philosophy and protecting and promoting human rights through development. We also appreciate China’s contributions to the international human rights cause.

    World Bank Investigation of Xinjiang:https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china

    When allegations are made, the World Bank takes them seriously and reviews them thoroughly. In line with standard practice, immediately after receiving a series of serious allegations in August 2019 in connection with the Xinjiang Technical and Vocational Education and Training Project, the Bank launched a fact-finding review, and World Bank senior managers traveled to Xinjiang to gather information directly…The team conducted a thorough review of project documents, engaged in discussions with project staff, and visited schools directly financed by the project, as well as their partner schools that were the subject of allegations. The review did not substantiate the allegations.

    Organization of Islamic Cooperation praises Chinese handling of Xinjiang:https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250

    Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.

    http://www.inp.net.pk/china-lauds-oics-resolution-on-xinjiang/

    Egyptian media delegates visit Xinjiang: https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang

    The recently published report also brings forth some interesting facts related to the religious freedom as opposed to the western propaganda. The report provides a strong testimonial by the visiting delegates who clearly state, “the in houses of worship such as the Id Kah Mosque in Kashgar, modern facilities abound, providing water, electricity and air conditioning. Local clerics told the visitors that their religious activities had been very well protected”. “The conditions here are very good,” said Abdelhalim Elwerdany, of Egypt’s Al-Gomhuria newspaper. “I could feel that local Muslims fully enjoy religious freedom.”

    Also Adrian Zenz is a complete moron: