• gnuhaut@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      The makers of this map, Freedom House, receive funding mainly from the US government. They also took money from BAE Systems, Britain’s biggest arms manufacturer.

    • Piye@lemmygrad.ml
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      10 months ago

      So is Turkey, your NATO ally who bombs minorities and steals other peoples cultural heritage. Stop being a hypocrite

            • Łumało [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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              10 months ago

              Also Putin is not a communist, but a post-fascist masquerading as an anti-fascist

              Wow, so you do actually have eyes! Fucking hell, you are raising my respect for you!

              Fun fact, I would nothing but for Putin to get hanged. But not by American imperialists and their lapdogs, but by the russian proletariat for the reestablishment of an RSFSR.

              So sorry buddy. It seems your assumption about me has been wrong, I suggest lurking more before speaking about your opponents.

      • BigNote@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        Unfortunately NATO wasn’t designed in a way that conceived of a rogue member state like Turkey. This means that it has a very limited toolkit for reigning in Erdogan’s excesses. He also has a huge amount of leverage due to Turkey’s pivotal role on the Black Sea which is obviously critical to everything happening in Ukraine. For now, NATO really does have its hands tied with regard to Turkey.

        • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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          10 months ago

          No, it doesn’t really, they just don’t want to do anything. Everything happening in Ukraine started happening much later than Turkey happened.

          And about NATO design not conceiving of something - when Turkey was admitted to NATO, there were people still alive who saw not their parents and grandparents, but their children and grandchildren killed before their eyes in 1915-1921.

          It was conceived that if somebody really wanted to get rid of that thing, then it’d be possible to make a shortcut on paperwork with all the military power. 1952, remember. But then again, it was 1952, you know, colonial powers still being that and not caring much about genocides of brown people. So nobody would see Turkey’s current behavior as a problem.

          • BigNote@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            I don’t think I follow your arguments. Is there a way you can rephrase your point such that a dummy like myself might understand it?

            • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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              10 months ago
              1. About rogue member states not being thought of when NATO was being created - when NATO was being created, even France and UK were more likely to behave like “rogue member states” and they did in some little known cases (Biafra, for example, or the Suez crisis). And Turkey was full-blown fascist (well, it didn’t stop being that at any point since then till now, just Westerners conveniently assumed that it changed like Japan, say, one my relative in the US from Jewish side is just in complete denial that it hasn’t as it wasn’t civilized by bombs, while at the same time uneasy with my cousins going to Germany).

              2. About NATO having its hands tied against Turkey due to Ukraine - if A happened before B, you can’t justify A with B. So you can’t justify Turkey getting away with everything it does by Russia vs Ukraine taking all the attention.

              • BigNote@lemm.ee
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                10 months ago

                I’m not talking about anyone being justified; I am talking about realpolitik and the fact that in international relations it’s often the case that what ought to be is often in direct conflict with what actually is.

                It would be awesome if we could live in a world of absolutes wherein national interests never conflicted with moral ambiguity, but that’s just not reality at all, sorry to inform.

                • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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                  10 months ago

                  And why then it’s a problem that Russia wreaks havoc in Ukraine?..

                  And I don’t see Western states acting in their best interest anyway. I actually see something between slow surrender to the worst of their competition and some weird kind of “let no one win”, trying to empower the worst savages while simply not working with those of competitors who shouldn’t necessarily be their adversaries. You can also take a look at the people which reach the top in European and US political classes, these are of, eh, declining quality.

                  Also for my second point - an event in the future still can’t be the cause for an event in the past, justification or not.

                  Other than that - large parts of NATO \ West “civilization offering”, so to say, were about freedom and human rights.

                  And large parts of the Soviet alternative were about humanism and equality and unification.

                  And if it’s casual for you that people were not supposed to believe in any of that in either case, then I don’t get it why people here are so eager to point out Soviet hypocrisies as if they were any different.

                  It’d be probably also awesome for realpolitik fans to not forget how real world works in terms of errors. Right now an error in your security systems means some protest, some Assange or Snowden, some scandal. Getting into realpolitik too much would shift those errors to justified terrorist acts. Well, I suppose that may be one reason why some countries are so eager to get rid of nuclear energy despite all the green agenda in PR. Single point of failure and all that.

      • Kata1yst@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        The best and last argument of dumb tankies is whataboutism. Thank you for your insightful contribution.

        • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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          10 months ago

          I don’t think it’s whataboutism to point out that a worse criminal you are fine with, and a smaller one not, because the latter kills “blue-eyed Europeans” and all that.

          You can’t just discard observations that you are a hypocritical bag of piss with that one word, “whataboutism”. And it only refers to somebody defending their own crimes. Most of real whataboutism I see in social media comes from Turks and Westerners defending Turks.

          Other than that, if somebody says that and you don’t, I don’t care if they’re a tankie. Turkey is worse than a Stalinist dictatorship, and I have priorities.

          • Kata1yst@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            Actually, that’s exactly what whataboutism is.

            Someone says: wow, topic A is bad.

            Whataboutism says: oh yeah, well B is bad/worse!!!1!

            Point is, we’re not talking about B/Turkey. And B/Turkey being bad doesn’t mean that A/Russia is excused from their terrible behavior.

            And (gasp!) Just because I oppose A/Russia doesn’t mean I support B/Turkey.

            The entire argument is bad faith and lacking any logic or critical thinking.

  • radiofreeval [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    I don’t doubt this as it’s happened to others, but Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is a literal CIA mouthpeice and tends to make stuff up.

    • socsa@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      It literally isn’t. RFE is definitely a US propaganda platform, but it objectively has nothing to do with the CIA these days. But you should probably check under your bed one more time just to make sure.

      • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        RFE also “objectively” had nothing to do with the CIA for nearly 20 years after it was created, at which point it turned out the CIA had been funding it all along. But now we know they’ve stopped because they said they did, and anyone suggesting that they’re not editorially independent is a paranoid loon, just as they would’ve been in the 50’s and 60’s.

        Some of us don’t believe that the people whose job it is to lie stopped lying because they said they did. Suggesting that the CIA is still doing things that they did regularly and successfully kept hidden in the past is not a conspiracy theory.

    • Zaroni@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      Compared to Russian sources radio free liberty is a baron of truth and press accountability, so frankly it does not matter.

      • RegularGoose@sh.itjust.works
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        10 months ago

        A shitty source not being the absolute worst source doesn’t make it any less shitty than it is. If your only options for news are US government propaganda or Russian government propaganda, the only valid choice is to stop following the news.

    • orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org
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      10 months ago

      Russian pacifists want Russia to stop invading Ukraine.

      Lemmygrad / Hexbear pacifists want Ukraine to appease Russia and give up territory.

      They are not the same.

      • trot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Russian pacifists want Russia to stop invading Ukraine.

        Western “pacifists” want to send NATO tanks to Ukraine.

        They are not the same.

        Russian anti-war activists have a correct position.

        But an important consideration should be whether one’s actions actually contribute to Russia withdrawing sooner, or if they instead help justify further, equally self-interested NATO involvement in the war.

        Unless you are Russian, it’s most likely the latter.

        There are two imperialist blocs involved in the conflict, and it doesn’t matter which one of them technically started it.

        • orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org
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          10 months ago

          There are two imperialist blocs involved in the conflict, and it doesn’t matter which one of them technically started it.

          I’m sorry, but when it involves one imperialist bloc invading a smaller country, then it does matter.

          Do you have the same position regarding the Vietnam war, Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan? Or do you only support whichever side is not aligned with the US?

          • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            The second you call Russia’s actions imperialist you just broadcast that you’re someone who just uses words for their impact and not their meaning and you should be completely disregarded in any conversation on the topic

          • trot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            I literally said that

            Russian anti-war activists have a correct position.

            Are you aware that it’s possible to want neither NATO tanks nor Russian tanks in Ukraine?

            You can even make sure you are consistent with both things in action 100% of the time - it’s a neat little trick called “opposing the position of your own government”.

            • orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org
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              10 months ago

              Are you aware that it’s possible to want neither NATO tanks nor Russian tanks in Ukraine?

              I am.

              But do you believe Ukraine is able to maintain their territory protected from Russia without NATO’s weapon supply?

              • Sphere [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                He most likely doesn’t believe Ukraine is able to maintain their territory protected from Russia with NATO’s weapon supply, and for good reason, given how clearly this is demonstrated by the utter failure of the vaunted counter-offensive. The only thing your position is really advocating is the useless deaths of vast numbers of Ukrainians (and Russians, for that matter).

                • teichflamme@lemm.ee
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                  10 months ago

                  The mere fact that they are in the act of a counter offensive after Russia tried to blitz then shows that it’s not even close to what you’re describing.

                  Ukraine is holding their current territory pretty easily and gaining the upper hand very clearly.

              • trot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                No, just as it would be unable to resist NATO in being turned into a far-right paramilitary-led banana republic if Russia were to suddenly withdraw without any decrease in NATO involvement.

                But the beauty of the neat little trick above is that if the working classes of both sides correctly oppose their respective ruling classes’ interests, we can end up with a scenario where both sides lose - objectively the best outcome for the Ukrainian people, as well as everyone else.

                The Russian anti-war activists are clearly holding up their end of the bargain. Why are you not holding up yours?

                • orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org
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                  10 months ago

                  The Russian anti-war activists are clearly holding up their end of the bargain. Why are you not holding up yours?

                  Ah! To be young and naive enough to believe that the anti-war activists in Russia have any leverage. They will all end up in Siberia or jumping out of a window.

                  Any regime change in Russia will come from the oligarchs, and the Russian working class will still be in a bad position (if not worse).

          • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            The Vietnam War? You mean the one where a rebel faction backed by Russia rose up against a smaller, recently established pro-Western government, and the US came to the defense of that government, because if they lost the enemy would surely keep expanding more and more across the entire region, and all the peace advocates were dismissed as supporting appeasement? That Vietnam war?

            Yes, we take a similar position on that as we do to this, do you?

            • orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org
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              10 months ago

              Vietnam was opposing a puppet government imposed by the US.

              The Ukrainians opposed a Russian puppet government in 2013.

              Do you support both Vietnam and Ukraine?

              • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                I support both the Vietnamese fighting against the South Vietnam puppet government and the Ukranians in the DPR fighting against the current Ukrainian puppet government, yes (though my support for the latter is more critical since they’re not communists)

                • orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org
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                  10 months ago

                  You did not answer my question.

                  Did you support the Ukrainians rebelling against their government back in 2013. Or do you only support a side if that side happens to oppose the US?

      • InappropriateEmote [comrade/them, undecided]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        No, we want Ukraine to stop trying to ethnically cleanse the Donbas and give the people there self determination. And we want the Ukrainian government to stop forcibly conscripting people to go die needlessly on the front in a clearly losing war. We want NATO to stop enabling all of that (it literally wouldn’t be happening if they weren’t demanding that it continue). That’s what it is to be a peace activist. And I’m fairly sure I can speak for all of us, we are not pacifists, lol. But we are advocates for peace and the end to the horrible and needless loss of life.

        Nice try to completely twist reality, and completely misrepresent us, as you war mongering dronies always do.

        Edit: We actually give a shit about all the Ukrainian people being thrown into a fucking meat grinder. We care about their lives. The people who just say “more weapons to Ukraine!” do not give a shit about the lives of the people there. They’re happy to just let the war keep dragging on until the last capable Ukrainian is dead. An example of how WE feel about the tragedy of the situation: https://hexbear.net/post/503747 (hexbear link to a lemmygrad news post)

        • blackn1ght@feddit.uk
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          10 months ago

          Edit: We actually give a shit about all the Ukrainian people being thrown into a fucking meat grinder. We care about their lives. The people who just say “more weapons to Ukraine!” do not give a shit about the lives of the people there. They’re happy to just let the war keep dragging on until the last capable Ukrainian is dead. An example of how WE feel about the tragedy of the situation: https://hexbear.net/post/503747 (hexbear link to a lemmygrad news post)

          So be fucking outraged then that Russia started, and is continuing this war. They’re the ones killing Ukrainians in their homeland.

          A comment from that link:

          Omg, it’s a full on genocide of Ukrainian people. Just damm the Western libs… Fuck this planet.

          Russia is committing genocide. They’ve been raping and killing civilians since the start, this is where your anger and energy needs to be. Imagine being outraged at the nation defending itself from genocide, and those countries that are sending the tools that they’re being asked for to help defend themselves.

          • Clippy [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            Gaddafi’s troops are committing rape to children en masse, they have issued viagra to mass rape people since the start. this is where your anger and energy need to be. Imagine being outraged at the nation defending itself from mass rape, and those countries that are sending the tools that they’re being asked for to help defend themselves.