My hot take is I’m actually okay providing an ID to prove my age. Where it breaks down is these idiots in governments think the only way to do that is by having the sites maintain that.
What should be done is have browsers like Chrome or Firefox. Implement a system that age gates websites, where you have to provide your ID to unlock your browser to allow you to see 18 and over material. The only thing the government would see it would be that you have unlocked 18 and above material, and sites would only have to change a metadata item saying that they are providing 18 and over material. This would be a low cost for everyone involved and would keep privacy in the forefront.
Of course, privacy isn’t actually what they’re trying to get at, they want to spy on us and everything about us. It’s not about protecting the children, it’s about knowing everything about us, so a solution like that would never be implemented
Edit: Downvote me if you want, but if the only alternative is to hand over my ID to porn sites who then will be forced to have those verified with the government then maybe it’s worth investigating some alternatives. I’m not saying my idea is rock solid folks, it just popped in my head, I’m saying we shouldn’t be letting 90 year olds in government decide what the best technical solution is, there are a thousand ways to skin a cat.
Yeeeeah, nope. Seriously, all the ways of age verification suck 'cause age verification itself sucks.
It’s unmaintainable for both websites and browsers (there’ll always be sites that say “fuck it”, and there’ll always be people to remove those checks from the browsers);
It gives personal info to the entities that have no business handling it;
[For sites] that would not leak the info: would you like an unsalted md5 with that?
What’s the alternative? To not fucking verify the age. I’m really confused how even normies aren’t tired of that “protecting the kids” bullshit. Oh, they’re worried? How about trying to be a better fucking parent so that their kids don’t hesitate to talk to them about stuff or at least setting up parental control software.
Great, your opinion that it sucks is noted, and ignored by the governments. Which is why I’ve thought about things that could be proposed as actual solutions. Dislike it all you want, they’re going to get it one way or another. UK, USA, and Canada are all trying to push legislation that would force porn providers to verify IDs and store their users.
Sorry I wasted my breath with my terrible idea that would only keep your porn history private from the feds. Guess we should just give up and not pitch any other ideas.
Sure there are, and there will be ways to get around it, it’s a jumping off point. I can say firmly though I’d much rather have a token stored in my browser proving I’m over 18 vs every porn site knowing exactly who I am and the government knowing every porn site I visit. I’d rather give up some freedom from my browser to keep privacy vs giving all of my data on my kinks to the government.
Guess I’m trying to say “There are other ways of solving it that don’t require handing over all of my data to the government or have them track me site to site”
See the problem is that they’re going to do it anyway. So if the “don’t fucking do it” is off the table, which I hate to tell you but it pretty much is, then wouldn’t it be at least good to have a privacy based approach?
You don’t eat your shit, right?
But what if you put a lot of sugar on it? Doesn’t it sound much better? At least it has some good flavor that way, and with enough sugar you won’t even see the brown parts of it. This way it doesn’t seem that bad.
Of course, not eating shit is off the table. You’ll eat it, and you will be happy if you’ve got sugar.
Right, I’m saying that’s not an anology, because it’s coming whether you like it or not. There is no “choice” you have here to just not eat it, unless you count not viewing porn as the choice here.
if you think bills like this aren’t at their core designed to erode user privacy, you’re fooling yourself. there is no “privacy based approach” to destroying user privacy, and the ultimatum you’re proposing is not real. stupid laws fail all the time. the fact that people are trying to make ID verification a thing doesn’t make it inevitable it will become a thing, and in fact, opposing it is the best chance we have at making it fail.
your argument to the inevitability of shit-eating just makes you an advocate for the legislators who want us to eat shit.
That was my point though, I even said it in my original comment? That there are valid privacy-focused ways to solve the problem, I gave an example, and then said “That’s not the point though, they want to spy on us.” So, I don’t know what you’re trying to convince me of? The point I was trying to make?
My only difference is that I think it’s coming whether we like it or not. In the US it has bipartisan support and even though we call our congressmen they don’t listen.
If it was truly to support the children and it was safe, secure, and private to prove I’m over 18 to access sites, I’d even be in support of the bills - but it’s not so I’m not.
there isn’t a problem to solve. the fact legislators want to do this is the problem. quibbling about how exactly they’re gonna implement the torment nexus is secondary to the goal of resisting the torment nexus.
like, if your whole thing is “this is happening, its self-evidently about surveillance, and we can do nothing to stop it” and you start proposing ways for us to be surveilled “safely, securely, and privately”, you are pro-surveillance. you are supporting the bills, right now, with the rhetoric you’re using. like, imagine doing this about any other political issue.
“i don’t support the death penalty, but we can’t stop the government from implementing it, so here’s the way I’d murder prisoners.”
“we can’t stop them from banning abortion, and I hate that, but I’ll suggest we put the limit at 10 weeks. that seems reasonable, right?”
your idea for “solving the problem” involves doing the thing that both restricts what information people can access, and tracks their legal identity, but in a way that is maybe marginally less stupid than tech illiterate legislators can manage. the fact that you would be fine with the bills if the intent was just to ensure kids can’t access “pornography” in a private way kind of reveals your biases here. it would not be a good idea even then.
what counts as pornography is socially defined. a tool which allows the selective restriction of pornography is also by definition a tool that encourages the redefinition of pornography to encompass whatever it is governments don’t want people to learn about. especially in the US, it would become a tool for the censorship of minorities, the banning of books, and the removal of queer people from the internet. that’s why these laws are being proposed. its not ambiguous at all. like, even if it is inevitable it will pass, the priority doesn’t then become “how do we make this bad idea more efficient?”, it becomes “how do we subvert this unethical restriction on our communications?”. assuming that we can do nothing to stop this ensures that we won’t. its a good thing nobody’s buying your bullshit.
My hot take is I’m actually okay providing an ID to prove my age. Where it breaks down is these idiots in governments think the only way to do that is by having the sites maintain that.
What should be done is have browsers like Chrome or Firefox. Implement a system that age gates websites, where you have to provide your ID to unlock your browser to allow you to see 18 and over material. The only thing the government would see it would be that you have unlocked 18 and above material, and sites would only have to change a metadata item saying that they are providing 18 and over material. This would be a low cost for everyone involved and would keep privacy in the forefront.
Of course, privacy isn’t actually what they’re trying to get at, they want to spy on us and everything about us. It’s not about protecting the children, it’s about knowing everything about us, so a solution like that would never be implemented
Edit: Downvote me if you want, but if the only alternative is to hand over my ID to porn sites who then will be forced to have those verified with the government then maybe it’s worth investigating some alternatives. I’m not saying my idea is rock solid folks, it just popped in my head, I’m saying we shouldn’t be letting 90 year olds in government decide what the best technical solution is, there are a thousand ways to skin a cat.
Yeeeeah, nope. Seriously, all the ways of age verification suck 'cause age verification itself sucks.
What’s the alternative? To not fucking verify the age. I’m really confused how even normies aren’t tired of that “protecting the kids” bullshit. Oh, they’re worried? How about trying to be a better fucking parent so that their kids don’t hesitate to talk to them about stuff or at least setting up parental control software.
Great, your opinion that it sucks is noted, and ignored by the governments. Which is why I’ve thought about things that could be proposed as actual solutions. Dislike it all you want, they’re going to get it one way or another. UK, USA, and Canada are all trying to push legislation that would force porn providers to verify IDs and store their users.
Sorry I wasted my breath with my terrible idea that would only keep your porn history private from the feds. Guess we should just give up and not pitch any other ideas.
The sites shouldn’t have to maintain that but browsers should?
Also, some browsers are open source.
There’s so many problems with this idea that I don’t know where to start. But, I do see where you’re coming from.
Sure there are, and there will be ways to get around it, it’s a jumping off point. I can say firmly though I’d much rather have a token stored in my browser proving I’m over 18 vs every porn site knowing exactly who I am and the government knowing every porn site I visit. I’d rather give up some freedom from my browser to keep privacy vs giving all of my data on my kinks to the government.
Guess I’m trying to say “There are other ways of solving it that don’t require handing over all of my data to the government or have them track me site to site”
Here’s a crazy idea: don’t fucking do any of that. What benefit is there to doing it in the first place?
See the problem is that they’re going to do it anyway. So if the “don’t fucking do it” is off the table, which I hate to tell you but it pretty much is, then wouldn’t it be at least good to have a privacy based approach?
Here’s an analogy.
You don’t eat your shit, right?
But what if you put a lot of sugar on it? Doesn’t it sound much better? At least it has some good flavor that way, and with enough sugar you won’t even see the brown parts of it. This way it doesn’t seem that bad.
Of course, not eating shit is off the table. You’ll eat it, and you will be happy if you’ve got sugar.
Right, I’m saying that’s not an anology, because it’s coming whether you like it or not. There is no “choice” you have here to just not eat it, unless you count not viewing porn as the choice here.
if you think bills like this aren’t at their core designed to erode user privacy, you’re fooling yourself. there is no “privacy based approach” to destroying user privacy, and the ultimatum you’re proposing is not real. stupid laws fail all the time. the fact that people are trying to make ID verification a thing doesn’t make it inevitable it will become a thing, and in fact, opposing it is the best chance we have at making it fail.
your argument to the inevitability of shit-eating just makes you an advocate for the legislators who want us to eat shit.
That was my point though, I even said it in my original comment? That there are valid privacy-focused ways to solve the problem, I gave an example, and then said “That’s not the point though, they want to spy on us.” So, I don’t know what you’re trying to convince me of? The point I was trying to make?
My only difference is that I think it’s coming whether we like it or not. In the US it has bipartisan support and even though we call our congressmen they don’t listen.
If it was truly to support the children and it was safe, secure, and private to prove I’m over 18 to access sites, I’d even be in support of the bills - but it’s not so I’m not.
there isn’t a problem to solve. the fact legislators want to do this is the problem. quibbling about how exactly they’re gonna implement the torment nexus is secondary to the goal of resisting the torment nexus.
like, if your whole thing is “this is happening, its self-evidently about surveillance, and we can do nothing to stop it” and you start proposing ways for us to be surveilled “safely, securely, and privately”, you are pro-surveillance. you are supporting the bills, right now, with the rhetoric you’re using. like, imagine doing this about any other political issue.
“i don’t support the death penalty, but we can’t stop the government from implementing it, so here’s the way I’d murder prisoners.”
“we can’t stop them from banning abortion, and I hate that, but I’ll suggest we put the limit at 10 weeks. that seems reasonable, right?”
your idea for “solving the problem” involves doing the thing that both restricts what information people can access, and tracks their legal identity, but in a way that is maybe marginally less stupid than tech illiterate legislators can manage. the fact that you would be fine with the bills if the intent was just to ensure kids can’t access “pornography” in a private way kind of reveals your biases here. it would not be a good idea even then.
what counts as pornography is socially defined. a tool which allows the selective restriction of pornography is also by definition a tool that encourages the redefinition of pornography to encompass whatever it is governments don’t want people to learn about. especially in the US, it would become a tool for the censorship of minorities, the banning of books, and the removal of queer people from the internet. that’s why these laws are being proposed. its not ambiguous at all. like, even if it is inevitable it will pass, the priority doesn’t then become “how do we make this bad idea more efficient?”, it becomes “how do we subvert this unethical restriction on our communications?”. assuming that we can do nothing to stop this ensures that we won’t. its a good thing nobody’s buying your bullshit.
I’d prefer an unmitigated disaster.
Nope fuck that.